For me, I get a lot of freezes when it is summoning creatures. It animates the "swirly pillar" and then never finishes summoning the unit, leaving the pillar swirling forever and I can't take any actions that will advance the game (even surrender), only hover and magnifying works. Have to close Scrolls to get out of it.
It used to do this a lot a few patches ago but then it was fixed, seems to be back again in 0.82 though.
Daendilz -
This was quite frankly one of the best posts I've read about the current balance problems of Growth, thanks for taking the time to write it!
Especially coming from the number 1 ranked Scrolls player in the world since several months back, you certainly back up your arguments with your play and I know that you have played Growth a lot in your rise to the top.
Given that the post was so good, I hope you don't mind that I "cleaned up" your Google-translated post so that everyone can understand your argumentation a bit better. It's not a 1-to-1 translation, I simply tried to convey the same info that I think your untranslated post had. Again, I hope you don't take this the wrong way - I just get a feeling that this post might be discussed and quoted a lot and some of the sentences seem a bit weird when taken out of context so it might look weird quoted, which would be a shame when the post itself was so insightful. Let me know if you think I erred here and I'll delete my "translation" asap.
Please note: Funnily enough, I'm not a native English speaker either (Swedish by birth) but I felt this needed to be done so maybe someone will find a need to "translate" my "translation" (translatception). :D
Daendilz said (edited by sysp):
I hope that these comments help you understand the problem Mojang has with the balance of some scrolls and abilities, some of which were inherited from the game Magic: the Gathering. Let's get started.
The ability Haste
The effect the ability Haste has in Scrolls is not equivalent to the ability Haste in Magic. In Magic, a creature with Haste can attack on the same turn it was summoned, and the opponent has a choice of whether to block or or take life point damage from this attack. It is a relatively powerful ability. But in Scrolls, Haste is the best unit ability of them all. What it does is cause direct damage to a creature or idol. It's equivalent in Magic would be "When summoned, this creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player", which is an extremely powerful ability. I think we should take this into account in Scrolls and make creatures that have this ability more expensive than they are right now.
Quake, God Hand and Eternal Statue
Growth cannot have all possible tactics. The idea of a card game with different colors / resources is that each color has a strength and a weakness.
Order has strong tactical spells [here I think Daendilz means buffs, unit movement etc - Sysp's comment] and walls, and its weakness is that it lacks strong creatures.
Energy has strong damage spells and powerful scrolls like Iron Ogre but its weakness is that it is slow.
Growth has all the strengths: fast creatures, strong creatures, tactical spells, global damage to reset the board when in trouble, regenerating walls, spells that prevent attack etc... They have it all! I think they should remove Quake and Eternal Statue to give Growth a weakness.
Card Drawing
Unlike Magic, drawing cards in Scrolls is ALWAYS helpful. As there are no lands in the decks, every card drawn will be something that you can play that turn, if you have enough resources. That is the problem causing the cards that make you draw extra card to be unbalanced. Especially the mass card draw of Fertile Soil and Heritage directly unbalances the game. I think you need two changes: the first is to remove any scroll that offers drawing more than one scroll, and the second, and I think more importantly, imposing a limit to the number of scrolls a player can have in hand at one time. I think that limit should be five.
Kinfolk Brave
Countdown is the most important attribute. Extremely important. I understand that there will be creatures in the game with Countdown 1, but I think they should be weaker than this. Ideally Kinfolk Brave should have one Health instead of two. You could also raise the cost from two to three Growth.
Mojang needs to take these balance issues seriously as the game starts to become boring at the moment, since all high level players play decks based on drawing scrolls (overpowered), Haste (OVERPOWERED) and if there are problems, cast a Quake to restart the game where you have an advantage by having more cards in hand after the Quake. Right now, you cannot win without Growth in your deck.
Thanks and I hope I have been helpful with my comments. I really think this game can become a staple among card games. Personally, I was hooked and I think the basics of the game are more solid than those of Magic. The choice of sacrificing a scroll for resources or two more scrolls is simply genius.
I have mostly been playing around with a pure Energy deck in Ranked over the last month. Which may or may not have anything to do with me dropping out of the top 10... :)
Here's the list as it stands currently. It got buffed a bit post-patch when Spark went down in cost and Burn now draws a card as well, but other than that it plays very similiar to pre-patch.
Slightly Sligh (Anti-Kinfolk Brave Energy deck)
3 Gravelock Raider
3 Gravelock Outcast
3 Gravelock Elder
3 Copper Automaton
3 Gun Automaton
3 Scattergunner
2 Hellspitter Mortar
3 Spark
3 Ember Bonds
1 Inferno Blast
3 Burn
3 Violent Dispersal
3 Thunder Surge
1 Potion of Resistance
3 Fury
Total: 40 scrolls (20 units, 20 spells)
Out of the new Energy scrolls from the last patch, Desperation, Iron Whip and Incendiaries seem especially worth trying out in the deck. Sadly no new creatures which is the deck's main weak point (both in quality and lack of options). Don't start comparing your creatures to Growth's creatures one by one, you'll just get sad.
Also, the deck runs 12 rares which makes it a bit hard to assemble. But if you wanted it easy, you probably wouldn't run Energy in the first place, would you? :)
As of last patch:
Scroll 'Fertile Soil' updated:
description: Sacrifice target unit you control and draw 3 scrolls. -> Sacrifice target creature you control and draw 3 scrolls.
costGrowth: 3 -> 4
However, the scroll can still target memorials.
I don't know if this is because of:
Scroll 'Stone Pact Memorial' updated:
subTypesStr: Wall -> Memorial
If so, wasn't the main reason for the nerf from "unit" to "creature" on Fertile Soil that sacrificing memorials to Fertile Soil was too powerful? A bit confused atm.
I think we already know four of the scrolls in Decay though. From the patch notes for 0.72 (October 4th):
Given the theme of these scrolls and that they already had assets implemented, it seems very likely that they got moved into Decay rather than removed, hence the "temporarily".
Don't take this the wrong way carnalizer, but I think you are a bit off in your analysis of Quake and God Hand.
God Hand is good when:
God Hand is not good when:
Trust me, God Hand can withstand a nerf to 2 power instead of 3 and still be supergood. Such a nerf will make it likely that about one more creature than usual will survive on your opponent's side which makes the spell a little less likely to simply end the game right away if you can get to a stalemated board with 3+ creatures in play (which is very easy to do).
Now Quake. If you haven't played much against Quake (or for that matter Wrath of God which worked in a similiar way in MtG), I can see how it seems like it puts the caster at a disadvantage. After all, your opponents gets to cast creatures first (unless it is a very late Quake), right?
However, what is easy to miss is that it is the threat of a Quake that gives a huge advantage to the person with Quake in the deck.
If you have a stalemated situation, one of the best way to get out of it is to play more threats than your opponent (preferable at least 2 more than they have). However, if your opponent tries the same thing, you can always just Quake and your opponent is now down a lot of cards. In summary, Quake is good when you are winning (since you are winning anyways), when the board is even (because you can't lose and you can control when the Quake comes) and when you are losing (since it is the best reset button the game).
Another often neglected aspect is the back-to-back Quake threat. Ok, so the board has just been Quaked, and your opponent plays creatures first. If he plays 2-3 of them, why not Quake again? Your opponent is now in the same situation as last turn but with less quality scrolls at their disposal.
Put these two spells in the same deck and you get a situation where the deck plays God Hand when winning, God Hand when it's a stalemate and Quake when it is losing. Given how much card draw there is in Growth, it is very easy to get these scrolls when you need them.
Nerfing Quake by one damage will leave a few more creatures on the board, making most of the scenarios above much milder.
Will God Hand and Quake still be played? Absolutely. Will they be close to broken? Probably. But close to broken is what we are aiming for, not nerfed into the ground.
Right now, they are giving Growth the absolutely best late game there is in the game (Thunder Surge can be positioned against and Honorable General is nowhere near its former glory) and if Growth is supposed to be the deck with the best early game (which it is by a wide margin), it's late game needs to get weaker (as carnalizer suggested).
The other elephant-in-the-room question is obviously:
Does Growth need to have both Quake and God Hand in order to still be a great deck?
Personally, I feel that God Hand is very Growth since it enables those early creatures it wants to play, and Quake is very non-Growth in flavor. Then again, so was Thunder Surge which was the card that went to Energy when Quake got moved. Thunder Surge shouldn't go back to Growth.
TLDR? Mojang, pls nerf Quake and God Hand or your strategy to make Growth the early game powerhouse doesn't make sense at all. If you are feeling bold, remove Quake (at least for one patch) and see if Growth will still have the best late game in the game. My bet is that it will.
I could only think of a handful of creatures that have attack = health right now:
Incidently, these seem to be some of the most clean designs in the game right now as well (in my own very personal opinion).
Is there a good reason why most creatures are designed to have attack < health, i.e. it survives an attack from itself?
I'm all for Order having big butts and blunt spears (which seems to be one of the themes / attributes of that resource) but when the majority of the creatures in every resource is designed like this, it blurs the lines between the resources in my opinion. I think that if you want Growth to be the early game resource, make it more like red in Magic: attack > health on most of their creatures and little regard for defense in general.
Countdown to 3 for the Great Wolf is probably the best way of fixing Mangy Wolf and still keeping the Haste part (which is very powerful, but also very fun as carnalizer said). Hasting the other tiny Wolves is much more balanced than having a Relentless powerhouse trampling over every single turn.
Here are my proposed suggestions:
Drastic? Yes. Will Growth still be the most powerful resource even after these changes? Most likely.
It is kinda telling that I was thinking of writing a "The 10 most influential / powerful scrolls in this patch's meta"-article for Scrollsguide and it came out reading like a Growth deck list (Kinfolk Brave, Kinfolk Veteran, Fertile Soil, Great Wolf, Mangy Wolf, God Hand, Quake...). Needless to say, I didn't feel excited to write that up so I didn't. I'm hoping the balance will be different with the next patch enough to warrant such an article.
When a resource has the best tribe (Wolves), the best creature (Kinfolk Brave), the best removal spell (Quake), the most powerful late game card (God Hand), the best draw spell (Fertile Soil), the best buffs (Champion Ring, Dryadic Power, Bear Paw, Crimson Bull) and the best subtheme (Haste), it should be in for a serious nerf.
tinfox - oh, that mass-Pushback would be so broken! Please don't print that. :D
Pushback is actually very strong and nicely costed right now. The main reason why it isn't used is probably the utter dominance of Growth in the meta (i.e. not many people play Order at the moment) and also how much Haste Growth packs.
In a different meta, Pushback is a very nice spell in a game where tempo is this important and removing a blocker to hit a glass cannon makes it pseudo-removal in itself. Not to mention that the Purification effect (i.e. all buffs fall off) when bouncing a creature makes for great utility as well.
I have to confess, I almost didn't want to post this deck.
I see Destroyer Superstar as a powerful tournament deck since it has good matchups vs most wolf decks and my own GO Joes, but in ranked it is an absolute nightmare to play with and against due to how slow it is to win once it establishes control. I've played games where I've taken no damage to idols, opponent couldn't keep a singlecreature on the board for more than two turns and still I couldn't finish the game in less than 30 minutes.
However, since kbasten and tinfox thought it looked neat and novel and wanted the decklist, who am I to disappoint? :) Just remember, you are probably better off playing a faster deck in ranked if you want to climb the rankings due to how few games you will actually be able to play and finish with this lumbering giant of a deck.
Here is the deck:
http://scrollsguide.com/deckbuilder/?d=78
The deck centers around the Destroyer and the board control that it gives. Since Summons fetches Destroyers, it is fairly easy to keep a couple of them on the board at the same time enabling all the funny tricks in the deck.
The single Law Memorial is in the deck to enable the powerful ramp up of turn 4 Destroyer / Blessing of Haste (or another Order spell). I also helps you get to 2 Order without stopping your progress towards 6 Energy where all the powerful spells in this deck kicks in. I didn't dare adding more than a sinel Law Memorial though due to the decreased chance of not hitting Destroyer with Summons when I really need one.
Once you have 1-2 Destroyers out on the board, you start wrecking your opponent's board with silly Destroyer tricks, here is a couple (there are more, especially combinations of these):
Ember Bonds is mostly for Kinfolk Brave, tempted to put a third one into the given how popular that card is (and rightfully so, most powerful card in the game atm in my opinion).
Violent Dispersal is a great way to get rid of Great Wolves before they become an issue.
Thunder Surge messes with entire deck types (GO Joes just hates this spell).
And then you win. Hopefully. Eventually. With slow and bad units. And then you apologize for taking so long.
But that is the way of Energy at the moment, although I have a speedy Energy deck in the works that is reminicent of Sligh for the magic afficionados out there. If it works out, I'll post that one as well, there isn't exactly a ton of good, current Energy deck lists out there.
Anyway, hope you enjoy Destroyer Superstar and may your wins be glacial and inevitable! :)
Quote from Furious_Turtoise »
Just wondering, but is there any good deck for energy?
Energy is a bit lacking at the moment compared to the other two resources, especially in the early game. I have an Energy deck with an Order splash (Destroyer / Summons) that is quite good vs wolves. I might post the deck list later.
Now though, since I was asked to share this decklist, I thought I'd give you the list of the deck I built today that went 10-0 in ranked.
G.O Joes (Growth / Order weenie deck)
3 Ragged Wolf
3 Kinfolk Brave
2 Eternal Statue
3 Sin-marked Zealot
3 Crossbowman
3 Ducal Spearman
3 Dryadic Power
3 Champion Ring
3 Crimson Bull
3 Focus
3 Crown of Strength
3 Blessings of Haste
2 Heritage
2 Pother
1 Purification
Total: 40 scrolls (17 creatures, 11 enchantments, 12 spells)
Max cost: 2 Growth, 2 Order (only go up to three of either if you have a good play already in hand, never pre-emptively)
The deck was inspired by Joethegreat1's deck (hence the name) that I saw glimpses of when he played vs my Destroyer deck - which incidentially probably is this deck's worst matchup... :)
It was also derived from the discussions in godfromthemachine's thread "How I learned to stop worrying, and sac the card" about decks that can draw and cast multiple spells per turn. This is usually done by ramping up resources, however this deck stops at 2 Growth and 2 Order and then just tries to play 3-4 spells per turn by optimizing what you sacrifice. It even plays more cards that cost 1 instead of 2, just to be able to play multiple cards even with few resources (omitting powerhouses like Frost Wind etc).
I think the deck is fun to play but it is also quite hard to master, I'm nowhere near perfect with it yet. You have to position correctly or you risk not killing off creatures fast enough and when the counterattacks starts coming in, it isn't pretty.
Some pointers:
Since the deck list is a whole day old, I' would be thankful for feedback on what to improve or hear about your experiences with the deck if you choose to try it out.
If you have 3 Kinfolk Brave (the only rare in the deck, and sadly the most important card as well :( ), you can probably build something fairly close to this and have it play about the same. Most of the cards are commons or uncommons so it shouldn't be too hard to assemble after the Braves.
Best of luck!
